week 3: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance - continued

Number of replies: 14

The expanded material provides us with the opportunity to further explore, confirm or attune our perceptions of the text which we formed on the basis of the first reading.

To give you a better idea of the "redemptive part" of Ywain's story, I supply it in full in modern English prosaic translation (also because the summary is very selective here).
Selected passages are given in the original with notes and translation, together with parallel passages from Chrétien's source in poetic and prosaic translation

forum:
Choose one incident/passage that you find especially illustrative of the differences in approach between Chrétien and the Middle English adaptation and comment on it briefly.
session:

I would like to ask each of you to consider how the latter part of the romance stands in relation to the points we debated last week - the various value systems that may define chivalry and that combine in the romance: the ethos of adventure for adventure's sake, the obligations within the male group, the service of love, the social responsibilities; additionally, we could speak of cohesive/divisive tendencies within these categories, though we didn't: revenge for a friend, rivalry with a peer etc. Does the latter part of the romance resolve the tensions we have observed in the first part? Try to argue your stance with one example from the story.

In reply to First post

Re: week 3: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance - continued

by Rose Delaplace -
To illustrate the differences between the French and the English versions, I chose a famous extract: Yvain and Gawain recognizing each other during the fight.
If the events narrated in the passage are the same, the way of telling them presents some differences.
In the English version, the action seems more important than the characters’ thoughts and feelings. The dialogues are straight to the point. The rhythm is faster. The sentences are shorter. The intensity of the dialog is low. The lector is not in front of the protagonists’ inner sentiments. The only mention is “Sir Ywain was aghast”. Quickly, the action continues after the discovery of the situation. There is no stop to let the characters express their pain in the face of the misunderstanding.
On the other hand, the French version is more empathetic, theatrical. Characters express their inner feelings. Their reactions are more intense. It is illustrated by an important use of exclamatory sentences, as well as interrogative ones. Characters show they suffer to have been led by misfortune, and to have been powerless. We can quote, for example: « Alas! What mischance! ». We can highlight some verbs like: “Crying “ “ cries” “sighed” . The narration allows us to have access to the character’s violent feelings: « sorely troubled and amazed » « anger and sorrow mazed » « shame ».
However, to conclude, we can also find some similar points in the two versions. The narrator is present (ex: “my Lord Gawain” in the French one, “I believe” in the English one), the values of the knights are shown, as well as the brotherly and respectful relationship between them…
In reply to Rose Delaplace

Re: week 3: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance - continued

by Jana Fialová -
The fight scene that Rose is speaking of also caught my eye the most. In the French translation the descriptions are more elaborate and more dreamy. One thing that I noticed is that the narrator actually steps in right before they recognize each other to tell the audience that is what will happen. It feels like a calming gesture on their part which to me illustrates an expected emotional connection of the audience to the characters and how they interact. Their mutual respect and affection also seems much deeper in the French version. In this case I actually appreciated the French translation as this seems like a pivotal moment in the plot and there is more space dedicated to its depiction in the French version.
But again, each of the translations seem to have a different narrative aim.
In reply to Jana Fialová

Re: week 3: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance - continued

by Helena Znojemská -
What caught my eye in your post was, "It feels like a calming gesture on their part which to me illustrates an expected emotional connection of the audience to the characters and how they interact." There is a more perceptible presence of the narrator and of implied audience in Chrétien, is that what you're suggesting? I wonder how it relates to Rose's reading - does it make for more, or less, dramatic/theatrical account? And how does the dreaminess fit in (I'm puzzled by that one, frankly... but perhaps we can work it out in the session)?
In reply to Rose Delaplace

Re: week 3: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance - continued

by Helena Znojemská -
If I take the passage in its entirety, I agree. But the part you focus on is rendered quite faithfully, though perhaps indeed less theatrically, in the English version.
"Theatricality" is a good label, and I'd subscribe to it, only I have to ask, is "theatrical" the same as "dramatic"? Throughout, the English version seems to rely more, rather than less, on dialogue - the French version is more varied, description of Yvain's feelings alternates with direct speech where the English version seems to move almost exclusively between action and dialogue. But the display of feelings is definitely more present in Chrétien. Is that what you had in mind?
In reply to First post

Re: week 3: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance - continued

by Harriet Davoren -
Of the more significant differences between the French and English versions of the narrative, I found each text’s treatment of Yvain’s forgetting of his promise to Alundyne the most notable. Moreover, I felt that this scene offers an example for how each version is different in how it contextualises Yvain’s actions in the narrative overall.
In both versions, Yvain is distracted by winning prizes in tournaments and maintaining his chivalric reputation in company with the other knights of Arthur’s court. However, while the English version summarises this as the usual activities of a knight, the French explicitly accuses Gawain of “[causing Yvain] to malinger” with the excuse of “[wishing] to do him honour.” One effect of this difference is the smoother cohesion and logic of the French narrative. Yvain’s forgetting of his promise in the English version casts the character in a negative light, conflicting with the expectations of a typical hero. Furthermore, his realisation is sudden and unexplained. Comparatively, Chretien’s narrator dedicates the aforementioned lines to create an explanation for Yvain’s misdeed, transferring the blame to Gawain. Through this several things are achieved. Yvain becomes excusable and his courtly love for Alundyne a more consistent quality. Yet paramount to this is the implicit conflict between Gawain and Yvain, creating a dynamic between the characters that generates dramatic tension. This is not found in the English version of the extract and thus draws attention to this version’s narrower focus on Yvain’s character in isolation. Though Yvain is not entirely independent, Chretien’s alternative approach demonstrates a greater interaction with the broader cast of the Arthurian legend. Looking beyond my chosen extract, I would argue that this is also evident in the French version’s overall narrative voice which is more likely to turn its attention away from Yvain for the sake of explaining the actions of other characters.
As such, the French version ultimately presents Yvain’s actions as more dependent on the motives of the other characters surrounding him than the English account.
In reply to Harriet Davoren

Re: week 3: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance - continued

by Helena Znojemská -
Your comment actually made me go check the original. It says merely that Gawain wanted to honour Yvain and made him tarry. So, it definitely traces the immediate cause of Yvain's delay to Gawain, but without the sense of Gawain being in any way duplicitous ('the excuse of “[wishing] to do him honour.”'). Whether this has the effect that you see (Yvain as a more consistent character) is perhaps something we should debate in the session.
As for smoother cohesion and logic - one could also say that not mentioning Gawain as the cause behind Ywain's breach of promise in the English version makes more convincing Ywain's consistent respect for Gawain, which in Chrétien appears somewhat surprising with regard to what you've stated - unless we read it as a way of showing Yvain so perfect that he won't resort, even internally, to any excuses for his error.
In reply to First post

Re: week 3: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance - continued

by Emma Mitéran -

Similarily to Harriet, I was also intrigued by the passage of the narrative where Ywaine forgets his promise to Alundyne. However, I would also like to focus on the passage preceding this event which depicts the knight pleading his Lady for leave to following the king. Therefore, I will dicuss different aspects of the scene while attempting to draw a comparison between the French and English versions. 

Firstly however I would like to add that in both versions to me it does not feel like Gawain is resposible for Ywaine's wish to leave for adventure. Or, to be more precise, it does not seem like he should be the one to blame for Ywaine's actions as he acts rather as a kind of impulse which makes Ywaine reconsiders his future plans, a strong one surely, nevertheless Ywaine is not pushed into anything and the choice to ask his Lady to leave is purely his (based on specific motivations), altough it grieves him to seperate from her. This sense of being torn about leaving his Lady however feels stronger and deeper in the French version, which focuses more on the character's inner thoughts, as we have discussed in our previous session. 

A point which one could find intriguing is that in the English version, Alundyne agrees to let Ywaine go as she "did not want to upset him", whereas in the French version one cannot find any justification of her consent. Additionally, Alundyne's answer to Ywaine's request in the French version feels more prominently fierce and blatantly uncompromisable than in the English version, whereas in the English version it feels a bit more like a shortcut for the development of the plot later on. Overall, the above-dicussed scenes from the narrative might appear more "fairy tal-ish" in the English version; one does get a much weaker insight into Ywaine's and Alundyne's motivations, therefore their actions and the general development of the plot feel more, let's say, predestined. Taking these observations into consideration, Ywaine's forgetting the date when he should reunite with Alundyne seems a bit implausible in the French version (especially looking back to Ywaine's initial suffering when parting from his Lady) and could lead one to think that Alundyne's maid's accusations (which are again much stronger in the French version than in the English one) do indeed make an accurate and strong point.

To conlcude, what made quite an impression on me in both versions is that Ywaine really is the only one to blame for not reuning with his Lady on the due date (if we omitt Gawain's initial impulse and various external causes - knightly deeds etc). By introducing the ring to the story, the narrative excludes the possibility of an unfortunate  incident holding Ywaine back from returning to Alundyne. This makes him the only person morally responsible for his actions, which I feel like brings more depth and credibility the narrative.

In reply to Emma Mitéran

Re: week 3: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance - continued

by Helena Znojemská -
Okay, I'd perhaps pick on the paradox (?) you mention - that the greater insight into the characters' thoughts in the French original actually makes the action less plausible. If Yvain cannot wait to get reunited with his heart that he left in Laudine's (=Alundyne's) keeping, how come he forgets so completely? Whether the plot turns appear more fairy-tale-like in the English version, or Ywain a more superficial character, the tension is downtoned. Which need not necessarily be a virtue, perhaps the tensions are precisely what Chrétien's version explores.
In any case, I'd like to hear others' thoughts on this in the session.
In reply to Emma Mitéran

Re: week 3: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance - continued

by Vendula Hojková -
I would like to add on to Emma and Hariet - i saw Gawain in the French version as a much more ambiguous character (he in a way reminded me of the Gawain from the Green Knight).

In the English version Gawain convinces Ywaine to leave because that is the honorable thing to do (even though Gawain himself says that if that were him, he would be tempted to stay), but that is where his influence ends. It is by Ywain's own "inaction" that he breaks his promise.

In the French version the introduction is the same, but later Gawain plays a more direct role in distracting Ywaine, because "Gawain will not allow him to part from him". It in a way seemed to me that Gawain seems to symbolise the "heroic" side of being a knight (as in a knight who does not fight after marriage is "degenerated", for he prefers love over the honour he gains from winning a battle) over him honouring the promise Ywaine gave to his wife.
In reply to First post

Re: week 3: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance - continued

by Martina Mrázová -
I would like to highlight the difference of depiction of the moment when Lunet departs from Aurthur’s court, leaving Yvain in mourning of his mistake. The English version is in my opinion dull, it uses the same vocabulary repeatedly and evokes little true emotion which the reader could physically envision. The lines read thus: “When Sir Ywain heard this, / he was stricken with sorrow / and nothing could stop his mourning, / which nearly drove him mad. / Nothing could comfort him; / he had come to nothing, / sorrow confused his wits and he knew / he had caused his own destruction: / “Alas that I was born. / I have lost my love / on account of my own folly. / I will die from this grief!” / An evil took him / and he grew mad from his woe; / he went into the forest, / walking about like a wild beast.” (1637- 1651). “Sorrow” is repeated twice, “growing” “driving mad” as well, “mourning” is quite a bland word. The passage focusses getting the emotions across to the reader swiftly, counting on the fact that everybody can in some way envision the emotions. It tries to overcome this dullness by the addition of direct speech but in comparison to Chrétien’s version, even that seems shallow.
When Chrétien depict the emotions, he does not only tell you how Gawain mourns, he shows you. He depicts the moment thus: “… his sorrow is ever increasing, / And all that he sees torments him. / He would rather be exiled alone, / In deep seclusion, and all unknown, / Banished to some savage place, / Where none would ever see his face, / … if he’d plunged in the abyss. / For he hates most the thing he is, / And knows not where to find relief / From himself who’s his own grief. / He’d be a madman not to take / Vengeance now, for his dire mistake, / Upon himself, who his joy hath lost. / He removes himself from the host, / Fearing madness, if he remain, / … he cares naught for aught they say, / Nor hath need of their company; / While he goes wandering, till he / Is far from tents and pavilions. / Then such a made tempest rages on / Inside his head that all sense is lost, / He tears his flesh, and naked almost, / Flees through the fields and valleys,” (p.3-4). There are two important differences, first the multitude of emotions, which are addressed not as plainly existing, but are described colourfully. Yvain is not simply in mourning; he cannot look at himself and others and would be rather banished into seclusion. Chrétien does not repeat himself; he uses opposing emotions to highlight the prevalence of the negative ones. The second important element through which Chrétien shows emotions is Yvain’s disregard for Arthur’s court, therefore Gawain, when Yvain realises his loss of Alundine. This establishes Yvain’s hierarchy of importance. Although there is no direct speech, Chrétien’s text reads more tragically and powerfully. But again, this colourful depiction of emotions is as the cost of the length of the passage.
In reply to Martina Mrázová

Re: week 3: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance - continued

by Helena Znojemská -
I think you definitely have a point in seeing Chrétien's narrator as more articulate (or Yvain more articulate through the narrator - although we may argue whether it's disregard for Arthur's court or a deep sense of shame that has him exile himself, as it were).
In reply to First post

Re: week 3: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance - continued

by Alice Balažíková -
Apart from the scenes already mentioned, another passage which stood out to me as illustrating the difference between the two version was the one capturing Yvain rescuing the lion from the dragon.
In the English version, the whole passage is treated in a more straightforward and less introspective way, with primary focus being given to the action. The emphasis is placed on the technical details of the actual fight (“Holding his shield in front of his face”, “he struck the dragon through from cheek to navel”, “Sir Ywain cut the tail in two” etc.), with little space being given to the hero’s internal conflict. Iwain quickly decides to rescue the lion and his motivation is reduced to the following: “The lion had little strength left to fight the dragon / so Sir Ywain prepared / to help him.” This version emphasizes the physical strength and courage of the hero, with his heroic exploits being given more space than the inner emotional turmoil which is explored in Chrétien’s version.
In contrast, the French version represents the whole incident with much richer psychological depth. Yvain sees the lion being attacked by a serpent and hesitates briefly, torn between helping the lion or leaving it to its fate. Yvain’s decision is driven not just by his knightly duty but by emotion: “But, whatever might occur, / He would aid the lion first, / For pity urged him so to do”. This motivation helps to creates an image of a more compassionate and virtuous hero. Yvain’s decision to help the lion not only demonstrates his chivalry but also symbolizes his own moral journey. The lion then becomes not only a loyal companion but also an emblem of the knight's journey to redemption.
In reply to Alice Balažíková

Re: week 3: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance - continued

by Helena Znojemská -
True (about the emblem, as well as the internal/external focus - pity/knightly duty). I wouldn't say it makes the English Ywain less virtuous, but it does describe his motivation in a very matter-of-fact way. You see an unfair fight, you automatically go help the weaker party.
But then the French original also has this disquisition on how Yvain decided to fight on the lion's behalf because it's right to harm poisonous and wicked creatures, and that seems to go in an opposite direction - Yvain is not here moved by emotion but by moral deliberation.
In reply to First post

Re: week 3: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance - continued

by Lukáš Lichoň -
As with the rescue of the lion, I found a similar difference in the fight between Ywaine and the Senechal, or Steward in the English version. The English version of the melee is shorter, but much more focused on portraying Ywaine as heroic, while keeping the injured lion to portray his positive qualities, such as compassion. The French version offers a more theatrical portrayal, in keeping with the general style, with differences such as the portrayal of Ywaine as more injured himself. Ywaine is also portrayed as more vulnerable than in the English version, where the fight is more evenly matched on both sides: "And all three then make their stand,Thus slowly gaining the upper hand. Wounded all over, by their blades. The lion, watching Yvain defend himself, nor for his part was my lord Yvain waiting any longer to help his friend".

In the English version, it could be said that the lion serves more as a symbol of courage, allowing Yvaine to show his bravery and fighting skills, while in the French version, it serves more as a symbol of loyalty, allowing Yvaine to overcome adversity through its aid.