week 4: Ywaine and Gawaine - final remarks

Number of replies: 8

I'll devote one more forum to our first text.

I promised we'd be wrapping up the discussion with looking at the differences in the telling of the French and the English version respectively and for that I'll follow the hints raised by your observations in the previous forum.

However, in the session I'd also like to return, in a more comprehensive fashion, to the idea of romance as in a sense an exemplary narrative:
Please consider the following sequence: the concerns raised in the introduction; the presentation of Ywain's failure (what precisely is it?); the presentation of Ywain's "penance" or rehabilitation; the duel between Ywain and Gawain. Does that all add up to a specific "lesson" for you? What would it be?

forum: what is the role assigned to Gawain?

In reply to First post

Re: Ywaine and Gawaine - final remarks

by Jiří Chytrý -
The interesting thing about Gawain is that he seems instrumental both in Ywain's fall and also his redemption. His philosophy, that love is nurtured well by worthiness (chilvaric deeds) and moderate consumption (getting a break once in a while), though at first the cause of Ywain losing Alundyne's trust, ultimately proves to be true. Immediately after recovering from his madness, Ywain sets out to do chilvaric deeds, going on the "knight-automatic" where he left off with Gawain, as if, at least subconsciously, he was still taking his advice to heart. Yet, it is noteworthy that the whole redemption quest is structured almost like a competition with Gawain: wherever Gawain was requested, Ywain arrives in his stead to the job, until they compete directly in the knightly duel.  Though Ywain holds no ill will to Gawain, in some sense this competition and the subsequent confrontation would be fully warranted even if they recognized each other: if Alundyne was deceived by Ywain, then surely Ywain was deceived by Gawain. 

This parallelism in mind, it seems very likely that what Gawain said was essentially true but required some correction. Gawain's words are confirmed as the correct doctrine in the eyes of love, but it seems, in the moment, he was using them with an ulterior motive: to gain back his friend, creating strife between love and chilvarly, where instead should be balance (the coupling between Venus and Mars being important for the later Ovidian tradition). That Gawain possibly had a more superficial idea of chilvary in mind (comradery, perhaps merrymaking?) could be argued by the subtle contrast between the two chilvaring periods. With Gawain, they go to tournaments and participate in other courtly activities, but what Ywain does alone could easily translate as good deeds in God's creation (itself a fusion of military deeds and deeds of love, but this might be too far, the focus in markedly on ladies in distress)






In reply to Jiří Chytrý

Re: Ywaine and Gawaine - final remarks

by Anastasiya Nováková -
I also think that Gawain plays a double role in the story. At first, he is mocking Yvain for his unwillingness to leave his lady ('What? Will you be one of those [...] who degenerate after marriage?'), and it's his speech that makes Yvain promise to go with them. Then, Gawain indirectly influences our protagonist to go one step further in his redemption - fight a giant who is terrorizing a noble family, which turns out to be the family of Gawain's sister; his niece being the object of the giant's will as the most beautiful girl he has ever seen. And at the very end, as we all know, they have a fight which proves how great knights they are, but more importantly, that they are still great friends: as soon as the truth is revealed, Yvain and Gawain drop their weapons and embrace ('But I would rather be defeated than killed by a friend in battle').
In reply to First post

Re: Ywaine and Gawaine - final remarks

by Vojtěch Ripl -
Perhaps this is stating the obvious a bit but Gawain, in this story, loses a great deal of personal characteristic. I believe that he is very often used as a convenient tool to move the story forward. First when he convinces Ywain to leave his new wife for a year, then indirectly when he is gone chasing the queen, because all of the people in need who would search him out have to rely on Ywain instead, allowing him to build up his reputation. And lastly when he decides to fight for the older sister. But the binding characteristic in him, I believe, is his social knighthood, for lack of a better term. He embodies all the social aspects of a prototypical knight minus the romantic, heteroerotic aspects. Perhaps this is why he supports the older sister in the battle, even though it seems clear to me that he knows she is not in the right, it is simply part of the job description. In this he, perhaps, gains another role in the story, that of the comparison or competition, as Jiří already mentioned, to Ywain.
In reply to Vojtěch Ripl

Re: Ywaine and Gawaine - final remarks

by Helena Znojemská -
I'll react to both your posts, because they combine together nicely. I think what Jiří writes in the second paragraph is correct in that Gawain urges Ywain to observe the forms of chivalry (as said, tournaments etc.), and this aspect of his characterization could be further reinforced in his fighting for the elder sister - both the original and the English version are strategically reticent about how she presented the case to Gawain but it's expressly said that he doesn't want to uphold her case publicly, in his own name, so that would seem to argue that Vojtěch is right in his reading.
As regards the absence of heteroerotic aspect in Gawain's characterization, I wouldn't quite agree. He's the notorious defender of women (the first question Ywain poses to all the various damsels in distress is - have you contacted Gawain?) and he develops a special understanding with Lunet when the court stays with Alundyne (in Chrétien). But perhaps I didn't get your point right, Vojtěch, and what you had in mind was the absence of something like Ywain's surrender to love?
The sustained comparison is undoubtedly there and in that the English title is quite pertinent. It is noteworthy, though, that Ywain's continuing respect for Gawain is not commented on in any way by the narrator.
Whether Gawain is in any way responsible for Ywain's failure, Jiří, seems to me questionable. But this is perhaps something we should leave to the session debate as regards the "lesson" which the texts present.
In reply to First post

Re: Ywaine and Gawaine - final remarks

by Veronika Šteflová -
When I thought about the role Gawain carries, the first thing that came to my mind was a sort of "direction-changer/setter/influencer" (mainly because of his persuasion towards Ywain to set off - to get back to his heroic deeds.) With such optics, Gawain is a `noble knight` serving to Arthur, however it forces a question whether to divert (someone, or self) from loving/romance is noble, if noble should resemble moral?
As the story continues, Gawain turns out to be sort of manipulative in my opinion (continuing with the theme that Gawain influences and sets the decisions Ywain makes - about the fight with the giant,...) Interestingly, Ywain proves to be more `knightly` than Gawain - he (at least) tries to keep his promise to Alundyne, he fights for what he (due to Gawain's suggestions) believes to be right. For that reason, I see Gawain as a seemingly good knight focused on the heroic purpose on the beginning (and thus his sort of manipulative behavior, which at the beginning might be perceived as good - he "only" invites Ywain to go on adventures), but as the story progresses and Gawain shows his true colors, he does not posses the moral value (though I know it is impossible to sum it up like that, to generalize Gawain like that.) It is contrasting with Ywain dynamics, isn't it? Ywain killed Alundyne's husband (and thus his behavior could be perceived as immoral, not noble), however in the end he is carries more knightly values than Gawain. With Gawain, it is the other way around.
In reply to Veronika Šteflová

Re: Ywaine and Gawaine - final remarks

by Helena Znojemská -
The slight problem with the moral judgment on Gawain's luring Ywain away from his wife is what Jiří writes: rather than diverting Ywain from romance he promises his advice will enhance it. After all, he's responsible for Ywain's year-long absence but not for his forgetting his wife's deadline. Unless of course we say that, contrary to Gawain's theory, Ywain's love was bound to diminish in the interval and so he forgot.
I'll ask you to expand on the latter point in the session.
In reply to First post

Re: Ywaine and Gawaine - final remarks

by Timotej Lauko -

I agree with Veronika and Vojtěch, that Gawain's most prominent role seems to be to drive the plot forward. That raises up a question: Could he be replaced by any knight who possesses great marital skill, is honourable and has a close relationship with Ywain? The only one who comes to my mind is Colgrevance, although he has already been defeated by the fountain knight and therefore would not be able to hold his ground against Ywain - it has to be Gawain. There seems to be more to him in this narrative.


There is nothing new in saying that I also view him as someone who represents the knightly archetype (as remarked by Vojtěch, he seems to run on "knightly automatic") and certain, if not every motivation determined in past classes; especially the homosocial (he is willing to let his lady lose in order to honour his friend by proclaiming him the winner) and heterosexual (he is everyone's first choice when it comes save the damsel in distress). It seems to me that he is supposed to mirror Ywain in some ways, although I cannot really tell whether this has any function in the story.


That said, I feel that if he was more fleshed out as a character, he would have "stolen the spotlight" from Ywain, as he is already very popular and estabilished Arthurian character with his own adventures, which seem to interlace with Ywain's story and could even take place at the same time. This, however, is something, that occured to me only after delving into Perceval this weekend.

In reply to Timotej Lauko

Re: Ywaine and Gawaine - final remarks

by Helena Znojemská -
In Perceval Gawain seems a more problematic figure than in Yvain. Here, with the largely absent Gawain, the emulation by Ywain (mirroring) seems a likely strategy. I don't actually think that this would be incompatible with what Jiří and others (even yourself) wrote: Ywain keeps relating himself and his actions to Gawain, in the process working out for himself the meaning of the "precepts" which Gawain follows.