week 6: Apollonius of Tyre

Number of replies: 9

I'd like to ask you to have a look at the Latin version of the story alongside the Old English one, if only to supply the part of the plot that hasn't been preserved in the latter.

forum: Can you see any points of contact in terms of thematic concerns, plot patterns etc. between Apollonius and the texts we have read so far? Is there a way they could be read as a similar type of a story, not to say genre? Pick just one aspect for commentary in the forum.

session: We will compare our findings in the above matters and continue with noting the major differences.
              Overall, the Old English version is an almost literal translation of the Latin - unlike the versions by Gower or Shakespeare.
Yet, it does depart from its source in a handful of significant instances.
              In preparation for a comparative inquiry into what happens with the story in the changing cultural environment, I'd like to ask you to mentally note these down and try to think what could have motivated the changes.

In reply to First post

Re: week 6: Apollonius of Tyre

by Štěpán Rybák -
At first, defining the points of contact between the already debated English romances and Apollonius seems to be rather factitious. The setting and key concerns of the stories could have been hardly more different from each other. Yet, an afterthought that came up when I tried think of similarities is that what Yvain, Perceval as well as Apollonius have in common is that they have to regain what has been more or less unjustly taken away from them. Yvain has to earn back the Queen's love, Perceval may be interpreted as brought by the forces of fate onto a path of regaining the knighty status that he should possess as a son of a prominent knight and Apollonius' story is all about reclaiming both his kingdom and later his family. So all the three characters are in their narratives brought into the possitions of total outcasts (Yvain after realising he has broken his promise, Perceval during his childhood and Apollonius after having shipwrecked) from which they eventually build back. The narratives share portraying a hero who has to struggle to recover his social status, they present a notion of a self-made man of some sort (although the necessity of help on the path to rehabilitation - such as God's providence, fate or superstitious forces - must not be questioned).
In reply to Štěpán Rybák

Re: week 6: Apollonius of Tyre

by Helena Znojemská -

A good point; the pattern of downfall and recovery is typical for many romances, and it's worth speculating whether that didn't represent one of the constituent features of the idea of romance for its readers.

In reply to First post

Re: week 6: Apollonius of Tyre

by Anastasiya Nováková -
While reading Apollonius of Tyre I have noticed many similar plot patterns with Yvain. He disappears 'from the radars' in the same fashion, experiences downfall ('the young man was lying at his feet'), hides his name ('The young man after whom though askedst is a shipwrecked man'), etc.
There are also some shared themes. For example, in both stories, friendship is valued a lot. In Yvain, it was shown during the fight at the end. In Apollonius, almost at the very beginning of his journey, he meets a man who says: 'That may not be, lord, that I take reward from thee on this account; because with good men, neither gold nor silver is compared with a good man's friendship.'
In reply to Anastasiya Nováková

Re: week 6: Apollonius of Tyre

by Jiří Chytrý -
I certainly agree that there is a lot of topoi the Apollonius narrative has in common with the romances we have read. The young man gaining fortune and favour by distinguishing himself either from deeds of charity or prowess, taking lodging with various lords and king while on his adventures, being fed and clothed by them, the idea of providence guiding the events, and, perhaps, also the topos of the place struck with some terrible burden of a past crime or sin, as if under a spell, the inhabitants being helpless and hopeless until the distinguished young man delivers them out of their misery (while the riddle of Antiochus fits this description only partially, as it does not get "solved," and the abused daughter does not get delivered, it still bears striking resemblances to the enchaned castles from the Perceval narrative, it is a challenge that has attracted many and many have failed, failure involves gruesome death, and it also concerns twisted/perverted familial relations: not only is the Fisher king Perceval's family, it is also quite likely he has had an incestual relationship with his mother; and Gawain, likewise, finds himself staying in a castle full of his lost female relatives and is about to be married to his own sister. The whole thing with meeting one's own relations and not recognizing them plays a big part in Apollonius just as well).
In reply to Jiří Chytrý

Re: week 6: Apollonius of Tyre

by Helena Znojemská -
The familial relations are a case in point (like the other things you mention), but here I'd think more of the English Perceval.
In reply to First post

Re: week 6: Apollonius of Tyre

by Veronika Šteflová -
As it was already mentioned by my collegue Štěpán, the setting of the stories is similar, if not the same. The heroic and most important actions take place in a castle of some sort, whose king is in a defensive position. There are some things, however, that are not as primal, and here are some parallels that I noticed; firstly, Antiochus tends to look down upon Apollonius, the knight that is approaching his realm/castle ("Thou young man, thou art far from right..."). This reminded me of Perceval approaching the knights, and them kind of looking from above at him; of course, in Perceval it was even more hyperbolic given his inexperienced, easily impressed and excited attitude, however, I still see the similarity in the difference in the power position.
Secondly, the daughter of Antiochus seems to be in a "whatever it costs" position when it comes to beliefs about marriage/romance. It is understandable she does want to be in the position Antiochus put her in, she even says that "death is exceedingly desirable" for her now that her romance ideals are destroyed. Such an attitude reminded me of Alundyne, who waited a year in her idealized (or traditional?) beliefs about romance, willing to go through pain to reach these ideals.
In reply to Veronika Šteflová

Re: week 6: Apollonius of Tyre

by Helena Znojemská -
Actually, Štěpán said the very opposite - that the setting was vastly different.
We'll see what others think about the position of Antiochus' daughter, but I'm not quite sure a young girl's romantic ideas of marriage are central to her experience...
In reply to First post

Re: week 6: Apollonius of Tyre

by Vojtěch Ripl -
I would say that what Štěpán said resonates with me the most. The regaining of a lost social position and identity is at the centre of many romances and, though the path is certainly much less straight forward here, I would argue that it is the case even in Apollonius. Not to just repeat what was said, I would add that similarly as in Ywain and Percival, it is romantic love to a lady that is, in the end, the path to the regaining of the right social status. For Apollonius, love as a manner of finding ones identity and social status. I would maybe even go so far as to say, that, similarly as Ywain, he has to first lose his high status so as to regain it through marriage and finding his wife later.
In reply to Vojtěch Ripl

Re: week 6: Apollonius of Tyre

by Helena Znojemská -
That would seem to suggest a pattern of destructive and healing love: the first (Antiochus') costs Apollonius his position, the second (his anonymous wife's) restores it. And then it's lost again (through intense love for wife and daughter) and restored (through the same means?).