week 2: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance

Number of replies: 15

By many scholars Chrétien is recognized as the inventor of Arthurian romance and Yvain is in many ways typical of his corpus. Some 150 years later Yvain was rendered into Middle English as Iwaine and Gawaine.
We will use a selection of corresponding passages from the French and the Middle English version to explore the core concerns of romance in general, as well as the differences in approach between Chrétien and his English "translator" (to a large extent representative of the distinction between "classical" French and English romance in general). The selected passages comprise about a quarter of the entire text.

  • I suggest you start with the plot summary to form a general idea of "what goes on and what's at stake" in the tale as a whole.
  • for the forum: I'd like to ask you to read the first part of the English material - the build-up towards the actual Yvain story.
    You can take this as an account of a "generic knightly adventure", a foil to what happens later. Try to list your general impressions as regards dominant themes, motifs, the ways the events are presented... Pick one feature you find typical and one that you found surprising (if any) for the forum, keep track of the rest for the class session.
  • combined: I'd like to ask you to compare the passages highlighted in blue in the English material with the corresponding passages in Chrétien.
    I give you two versions of translation, poetic and prosaic, to cater for diverse tastes ;-)
    session only:
    1) the first, introductory passage - on Arthur, his knights, his time etc.: do the two versions emphasise the same things? If not, what's the respective emphasis in each?
    forum and session:
    2) the central passage - Yvain coming to terms with Alundine;
        I suppose we will get here in the realm of value judgment: in your reading, is what the English version performs a streamlining or a reduction? Be prepared to discuss the reasons for your verdict (session).
        How do the two versions (French/English) read? Try to describe what you value and/or dislike about either. Considering their differences, what effect or goal are they, in your opinion, respectively after? Pick one feature for the forum, keep track of the rest for the class session.
In reply to First post

Re: week 2: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance

by Pavel Fogl -
1) In many ways, I find the first part to be a typical knight adventure story. There is the strange myth-like quality about the adventure (pouring water on a stone, talk of honor and fighting, lovely ladies and brave knights.
I do find it strange that, in the story, Sir Colgrevance is in the wrong. He absolutely did disturb the home of the other knight for no good reason, and his opponent was fully right to defend himself. Sir Kay is also a bit strange, being a clearly non-heroic character, yet defended by the queen and tolerated in the company.
These is also the strange inclusion of the wild man controlling the beasts of the forest, a character who is completely unnecessary yet has a lot of details included. He seems like a reference to a different story, maybe even a much older one with some pagan undertones. I would like to know if anyone has any idea what that’s about.
2) I believe that it is mainly justified streamlining. The French version is obviously much, much longer, with Yvain having monologues about his love and convincing Laudine taking longer, the story is not significantly changed by the information which was cut. The only thing that I feel changes is the dynamic between Yvain and Laudine, with Laudine being more in control, but it is not a large change.
I feel like the principal difference between both versions is that the French seems to justify itself more. It feels the need to explain why Ywain has fallen in love, and how Laudine was convinced.
In reply to Pavel Fogl

Re: week 2: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance

by Helena Znojemská -
1) I am intrigued by what exactly you mean by "myth-like quality"... what you mention in brackets as explanation seems to highlight aspects of a different order, but perhaps they add up to the mythical quality? If I take "lovely ladies and brave knights" as referring to the characters being (arche)typical rather than individualized, and the "water on stone" referring to the element of the supernatural? Is that what you had in mind?
We'll see how others see Colgrevance's exploit, whether they'd agree with you. It doesn't seem to me that he'd attack (by proxy) the knight of the fountain on purpose, but, on the other hand, he probably would if he knew, anyway. But is it "being in the wrong", at least in the space of the story?
The wild man, yes. The space devoted to him, as you rightly note, is entirely disproportionate to his role in the story (i.e. any other character could fill his place - the lord of the castle where Colgrevance lodged, a random peasant, a hermit, such as appears in the second half of the story...). So, I too am curious what people make of him.
2) So, you see the English version as streamlining for the sake of the story (fabula, plot-line). The original is better on rendering motivation. Would anybody like to add anything to that?

In reply to First post

Re: week 2: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance

by Emma Marešová -
Ywain and Gawain focuses on the action rather than individual psychological states. It is less concerned with themes of courtly love and chivalry; Ywain and Alundyne’s reconciliation is essentially brushed over in favour of knightly exploits. This reconciliation passage is much shorter here than in the original French version - the French is much more fleshed out, while the English is simplified. In Yvain: Le Chevalier au Lion, the lady Alundyne’s thought process is outlined (her consideration of Lunet’s words), and her grief feels more real. The relationship with the maid, though close, maintains propriety; in the English version she is more casual: “For God’s sake, let go of your mourning” (942 - crazy line); she seems more forceful, much more like she’s corralling the lady into marrying Ywain rather than offering counsel. Particularly Alundyne in Ywain and Gawain is not much of a character, more so she is the figure of a beautiful lady for the knight to fall in love with. Her own agency is suppressed (not that she has much in the French version either, but her choices are at the very least given some personal context). The scene quickly shifts to the confrontation between Ywain and Kay - the English version specifies Ywain “hastily [dressing] himself in his gear” (1298-1299), as part of English Romance tradition, which is not depicted in the original French. Ywain and Gawain is more straightforward about Ywain’s heroic, knightly qualities - his handing over of Sir Kay’s horse to Arthur is specifically described as “courteous” (1330). I think the English version is concerned with depicting straightforward heroism through action, while the French focuses on internal struggle.
In reply to Emma Marešová

Re: week 2: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance

by Helena Znojemská -
English/French versions: action vs. psychology, prowess vs. courtliness (including love) - I think this is a fair assessment, thanks!
Your view of Alundyne in the English text seems to be the opposite of what Pavel has written - you see her as more of a passive object, he maintains she's more in control. I'd like to hear your reasons in the session. In general, the portrayal of Alundyne merits discussion. You see her as more "rounded", convincing character in Chrétien. I§d like to hear what others think.
In reply to First post

Re: week 2: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance

by Klára Klihavcová -
What I found unusual is that the romance is centered around a marriage (and a reconciliation of a married love). On the other hand, what I find quite typical is the use of mistaken/secret identity trope.
Whether the English version performs a streamlining or a reduction, is, in my opinion, a matter of personal taste. The narrative retains all the essential scenes, descriptions and dialogues necessary for a coherent and intriguing storyline that is more fast-paced and focused on action, but appears somewhat flat when compared to Chrétien’s richly detailed descriptions and insights into character psychology.
In reply to Klára Klihavcová

Re: week 2: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance

by Rose Delaplace -
1) For me, it looks like a typical knight story. A lot of characteristic themes/topics can be highlighted. For example, both versions emphasize the importance of the knight's values, such as bravery, nobility, courage… The protagonists respect some characteristics of the knight archetypes. We can also highlight the different quests and enemies that the knight must fight, for example the knight who protects the fountain, the giant etc. Each time, it is motivated by knights’ duties and greatness of soul. Quite often, the motif of the gentle lady in distress, who needs a valorous knight to defend her, is also present. Another typical aspect of a knightly adventure could be the presence of magic, for example with the protective ring. This magic can be both positive, and negative.
I was just wondering about two things that I found surprising. Both happen during the first encounter between Yvain and Alundine. The first one is that Alundine is allowed to remarry directly after her first husband’s death. Wasn’t the wife supposed to respect a period of mourning? The second one is that Yvain accepts to put himself at the service of Alundine’s lands, which seems opposite to King Arthur’s. Wasn’t a knight supposed to be completely loyal and devoted to his king ?
2) To my point of view, the English version is closer to a streamlining. Firstly, even if it is shorter than the French one, it is not a reduction of the initial story, with some elements canceled. For me, it is mainly another way of telling the plot. Secondly, we can also say “streamlining” through the fact that the English version is more “efficient”. Without obscuring passages, it goes faster. It seems easier to read. The version is more about sharing a story, transmitting a legend, without too many long details. We can also point out the fact that the narrator is less present, more anonymous, compared to the French one which uses “my Lord Yvain” very often. We can say that the French text is maybe more poetic, but also more complicated. The author seems to want to show the knights greatness, their personal qualities... It is closer to praise. For that, he uses a lot of monologues, details… We have access to the character’s personalities, doubts, defects, construction, way of understanding events....
In reply to Rose Delaplace

Re: week 2: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance

by Helena Znojemská -
Though I generally agree with what you say under 1), I have to make one correction. The knight, emphatically, doesn't fight the giant, although he does expect conflict. The giant is introduced in terms that suggest an adversary, but his role is different. This might be worth looking into in the session.
What you are wondering about. The mourning - depends on what you mean by "supposed". There were Church ideas on marriage, which frowned on remarrying. Then there was the social reality, especially for aristocratic widows, who would be very much sought after because of their dowry, and who might be pressurized to remarry for political reasons (in a sense, like Alundyne). In romances, you often get prolonged periods of mourning. We can take what happens in Yvain as a commentary on all this.
Split loyalties - a non-issue. After the marriage, Alundyne's lands pass under Yvain's control, and because he's a knight of Arthur's, the threat of invasion vanishes. Yvain protects Alundyne by being on good terms with Arthur.
2) A fair description. I especially appreciate the point about the narrator.
In reply to Klára Klihavcová

Re: week 2: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance

by Helena Znojemská -
Good point! That's precisely where our expectations and preconceptions of the genre clash with the actual practice. In fact, two of Chrétien's romances treat of married love (Yvain, Erec et Énide), one of love outside marriage (Lancelot) and one, as far as we can guess, is not centrally focused on love at all (Perceval). However, it could still safely be said that romance is concerned with courtship, love to be attained, not with settled relationships, so perhaps what is needed is adjustment or reformulation of that preconception rather than dismissal.
In reply to First post

Re: week 2: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance

by Martina Mrázová -
I much preferred Chrétien’s version of the narrative, the amount of detail and thought depicted by him is simply more captivating than the English narrative. The articulate description allows the reader to immerse themselves into the tale, into both the adventure or battle narration and the exploration of the characters’ psyche. One example of the former could be the description of the fatal blow to the head of the “Knight of the Storm”. The Middle English poem reads thus: “Finally Sir Ywain / proved his prowess / with a blow that split / his opponent’s helm and brainpan. / The knight knew he was near death / and thought it best to flee,” (lines 657-662). It is dull, there is no sense of escalation, the action just simply happened. It was told to the reader without the expectation of evoking any emotion (not strong one at least). The scene’s use is that of only reminding the reader of Yvain’s powers and then it moves to another scene. Although there is some escalation in previous lines, the reader nevertheless is unsurprised with the fatal blow. Chrétien depicts the scene thus: “At last, my Lord Yvain did hammer / At the knight’s helmet so fiercely, / The blow stunned the knight wholly, / Such that he fainted right away, / He never having, until that day, / Felt such a blow; his skull split / With the tremendous force of it. / And now the outflow from it stains / His bright mail with blood and brains; / And he with such pain doth meet, / His heart almost neglects to beat. / He fled then, gasping for breath,” (p. 3). The narration is dynamic and detailed, allowing the reader to visualise the “Knight of the Storm” fleeing badly wounded, with his armour stained with blood and brains. Ywain had to hammer fiercely, had to exert an effort to bring his opponent down. Where the English version moves from one scene to another, Chretien prolongs it for the reader’s pleasure. I do agree that Chretien’s version reads slower, as it is simply much longer, but it balances the length with the catching description. This difference in the level of detail and therefore captivation is also evident, if not more in the emotions of Yvain and lady Alundine. In the Middle English poem, their parting scene is described thus: “Sir Ywain thanked her [for the ring] / and hurriedly prepared / his armor and other gear, / stalwart steeds, shield and spear, / and also a squire, knave and swain, / which pleased Sir Gawain. / Sir Ywain would wait no longer / but mounted his steed / and took his leave,” (lines 1545-1553), while the English Ywain is eager to leave his lady behind and chase his adventures, Chrétien’s Yvain is deeply upset, he loves his wife and does not want to part. It is only honour and therefore the honour of his wife that urges him to depart. Chrétien depicts the scene thus: “Seeing the lady bathed in tears, / He begged her to return amain /… MY Lord Yvain is now so greatly / Distressed at parting from his lady, / His heart it can do naught but stay. / The king may lead the body away, / But not the heart, for she so chains / And binds his heart, she who remains, / Not even the king has the power / To draw it away for even an hour. / And if the body lacks its heart / How shall it live when they’re apart? / Lacking its heart, a living body / Is a marvel no man e’er did see. / Yet this marvel has come about, / For he is still living, yet without His heart,” (p. 2). Chrétien (and Alundine) grips the hearts of the readers, they feel the agony of the parting, the love of the characters. The compelling image of the Yvain’s heart staying with his wife proves the true emotional love his characters have for each other. Although the scene could be discarded as useless, as it does not truly move the narrative along, its exploration of the psyche is more productive for the story itself then a shortness of lines would be.
In reply to Martina Mrázová

Re: week 2: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance

by Helena Znojemská -
The forum posts make it clear that the responses to the two version can be vastly different. But you've formulated your position at length and coherently, so I would ask others to take a stance on this proposition: "The articulate description allows the reader to immerse themselves into the tale, into both the adventure or battle narration and the exploration of the characters’ psyche." - where you place emphasis on the latter. Do you (= everybody) appreciate the psychology? What do you think of the portrayal?
In reply to Helena Znojemská

Re: week 2: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance

by Alice Balažíková -
I personally appreciate the emphasis on the characters’ complex emotions and inner turmoil, as it helps to shape more complex and relatable characters and thus create a more engaging story. (Such as the parting scene between Ywain's and his wife.) On the other hand, the English version may be more appealing to readers who value the adventure and action aspect of the story, as it focuses more on the external events and moves at a faster pace, without the emotional and introspective focus that some may find distracting.
In reply to First post

Re: week 2: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance

by Jana Fialová -

I am definitely going off the discussed topic here but I especially appreciated Lunet's part in the story. Despite not being the lady or one of the knights, Lunet seems to be the character with the highest degree of agency. While Ywain is the first man to ever pay attention to her, her character development never leads her to falling in love with Ywain. Instead she strategically points her lady to Ywain’s direction. Compared to her lady she does not get very emotional and is the more critically thinking one out of the two, keeping the safety of their people as a priority which is something I would associate with a character that is actually in a position of authority.

In reply to Jana Fialová

Re: week 2: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance

by Helena Znojemská -
Good point - I think you partly agree here with Tomás. Not that he focuses on Lunet's agency but that he mentions her as following the code of honour/chivalry (despite her being "off-centre" in a sense) and the way she contrasts in this with Kay. We could take this as an inclusive gesture, or a way of extending aristocratic values beyond class boundaries (what we see happening in Chaucer). At the same time, her matter-of-fact approach contrasts with the emotional effusions of the protagonists (as you note), which could provide a certain distance that might play a role in our discussion of how these work - whether we accept them unhesitatingly or whether we see them as part of a certain game between the narrator and the audience. This is probably too convoluted to make much sense, but I hope we can work this out in the session.
In reply to First post

Re: week 2: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance

by Tomás Flynn -
  1. The story contains many typical features of a knightly tale; honour, chivalry, and vengeance. There is a very strong emphasis on repayment of both insults and good deeds, amongst all characters. When Ywain rides off in haste to avenge his cousin, he is putting life and limb at risk to ensure his cousin’s attacker is punished, despite the fact Sir Colgrevance was the provocateur. It is taken as obvious that Ywain would do this, with him calling his cousin ‘a fool’ for ‘not having told me of this amazing adventure sooner, for I would have avenged you of that knight immediately’ (line 461). This gesture, of an unquestioning repayment of a favour owed, is repeated with Lunet, who risks her own life for Ywain without hesitation, stating she owes him ‘honour and service’  merely because he took notice of her task at Arthur’s castle (line 720).  A feature I found surprising was the reversal of this unquestioning loyalty, with Sir Kay’s seeming total lack of respect for his fellow knights. Rather than Ywain’s unwavering and total support of Sir Colgrevance, Sir Kay is content to put his peer down in any way possible, even in front of their queen. He seems to bear no good will to his fellow knight, and acts almost dishonourably to make him look foolish.  
  2. The streamlining seems justified both narratively and aesthetically. The English version seems to show, not tell, where the French version seems to feel it must explain itself at every turn. For example, when describing Ywain’s attack on the knight, the French version explains that ‘they were very honourable in not trying or deigning to strike or harm their steeds in any way; but they sat astride their steeds without putting foot to earth, which made the fight more elegant‘. However, the English version “streamlines” this, reducing this description to ‘I quickly smote his shield, and my shaft broke out into the field. Then, with his strength he threw me out of my saddle the length of my spear’. This keeps the action moving, rather than wasting time explaining once more how honourable Ywain is, something we as readers know already. 
In reply to Tomás Flynn

Re: week 2: Chrétien and its English redaction - the concerns of romance

by Helena Znojemská -
I have reacted to your post under point 1) in my response to Jana.
as for point 2), the contrast between showing and telling is a useful point, and we'll discuss this in class.